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Location: Home  Community Forums  General Discussions  Are respawnable CPs still important? 
Are respawnable CPs still important?
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Are respawnable CPs still important? 01 May 2017 00:26:16  
Respawnable checkpoints are, IMO, an important part of good track design. The ability to respawn and continue from a CP allows someone new to the track (or even new to the game!) a painless way to drive and learn a track without being forced to start over from the beginning each time.

All of Nadeo's tracks, to my knowledge, have always had respawnable CPs. Typically if I'm driving a new track and a CP isn't respawnable, I just quit and delete it immediately, especially if it's a difficult track. There are a lot of tracks out there, and I don't have time to force myself to learn a track if I'm not sure I'm going to enjoy the rest of it.

But lately, I've been seeing more and more tracks without respawnable CPs. In the last MTC, some CPs in fully half the tracks submitted weren't respawnable. After giving it some thought (and experiencing some frustration on some of the more difficult tracks), I decided to give them all "half" ratings of 5 out of 10, since it seemed to me like those tracks were lacking a very important design element.

I'm guessing this will make some people angry (and I wrote a note to the MTC judges that they're free to throw out all my scores if they disagree with my decision or think I'm being unfair).

I mainly created this thread out of curiosity...what do the rest of you think?

Are respawnable CPs still a fundamental part of track design (assuming the track isn't, like, 20 seconds long or something), or has something shifted in players' expectations, and am I the only one who really cares?
Track Slacker
Location: US
01 May 2017 00:58:56  
Hmm, this is an interesting question. I tend to try and make my courses respawnable, but the fact of the matter is that sometimes you just can't. Particularly with fullspeed or otherwise fast courses, getting the player back up the the intended speed is an often difficult challenge and can result in somewhat rough alternate routes in order to keep the normal route clean. After all, the idea of any course is generally to get one clean run in; if the track doesn't feel good without respawns, there's no reason to even think about adding the feature in.

That said, there's a reason that CPs have their respawn functionality. When learning a map, it can be a pain to have to redo 45 seconds of map to even try the segment afterwards. In cases where the map is difficult, you might need many retries to figure that particular segment out. Combine that with the time needed to get back there and the runs failed before even reaching the segment and it's no wonder why being able to respawn and try a segment over and over without redoing the entire map can be relieving.

I guess I don't think respawnable CPs are important or worthless. It really depends on the map you're making; if you can make your CPs respawnable, I think it's a good idea to do so, but I wouldn't stress out about it. Some maps are better off just leaving them be and focusing on making the standard route perfect, and that's fine by me.
MTC Host
Host
Location: US
01 May 2017 01:39:29  
Arkive says:
Particularly with fullspeed or otherwise fast courses, getting the player back up the the intended speed is an often difficult challenge and can result in somewhat rough alternate routes in order to keep the normal route clean.


I guess I'm just spoiled.:) Even when designing my own tracks, if I couldn't fit in respawns, somehow, then I'd redesign the track until I could, just because I don't want to have to drive the whole track over and over while testing basic things and trying different changes. (Unless it's a super-short track, like I said previously.)
Track Slacker
Location: US
01 May 2017 11:22:17  
It also depends on the audience you are aiming for.

If you want your track to be played in online servers then respawnable CPs are strongly recommended, especially for Rounds mode, so that drivers can quickly recover from a crash and cross the finish line before time runs out.

If it's not the case then I would say it's up to you :)
G-kart Racer
Location: FR
01 May 2017 12:35:19  
if your goal is to set the fastest time, respawning cps is not important at all & useless.
Beetle Racer
Location: DE
02 May 2017 01:08:43  
It's an interesting discussion, one that I haven't seen for quite a while.

Personally, I feel like if you can respawn from a CP, you should be able to finish the track from that CP. It's how I learned to build maps from other experienced and creative mappers in United when I started mapping.

But thinking back to my pre-United days....

I was SO annoyed with the last map of the TMN ESWC campaign. Because of the way the game was made, I had to start from the beginning every time I'd crash.

I was so happy when I started playing United and I could respawn at a CP and continue after crashing. It meant I could finally finish maps. I guess that feeling has never left me, even though I respawn on maps less often these days... because yes... I want to set a good time.

The exception is when playing rounds, either on a normal rounds server, or in the MX Knockouts. I will use a respawn and finish the map if at all possible. In normal rounds I want the points. In the knockout, I'm just hoping someone else messed up worse than me and that they'll be last instead of me. The time matters less than the placement I come in at. And there are even fullspeed maps in there, so it's not all about tech and speedtech.

The beauty about TM is that we can build the way we like. If someone wants to build a map with respawns that don't work, that's their choice. I may withhold an award or not put the map on my server, but others may find no issues with it and award and host it.



Respawns are probably one area where Nations and United players developed very different philosophies, possibly because Nations had no respawns until Nations Forever came out.... by which time a tradition of not caring about respawns was already within the track building culture, and thus passed on from mapper to mapper.

However, United always had respawns.... plus many United players came from TMO and Sunrise... so a tradition of using respawns was there from the start.

Now we all meet in TM2 and different track building philosophies clash.
One isn't really better than the other. They're just different.
Last edited by eyebo.wp, 02 May 2017 13:59:30
Site Leader
Location: US
02 May 2017 04:29:09  
fredair.esu says:
if your goal is to set the fastest time, respawning cps is not important at all & useless.


For some people (like me) respawns allow learning the track with less frustration. With many tracks, that's the difference between setting a fast time and not bothering.

For you, it's not important at all & useless. :)

eyebo says:
Respawns are probably one area where Nations and United players developed very different philosophies, possibly because Nations had no respawns until Nations Forever came out.... by which time a tradition of not caring about respawns was already within the track building culture, and thus passed on from mapper to mapper.

However, United always had respawns.... plus many United players came from TMO and Sunrise... so a tradition of using respawns was there from the start.


I really think this is the answer. I've been playing and building since TMO, so that's what I learned and how I got used to playing. In TMO and Sunrise that was the "right" way to build.

I'll have to think about it. Part of the problem is that I don't want to be unfair to MTC mappers, and after thinking about it, I guess I probably am, since I'm expecting things to be a certain way. Sorry about that. :(

In the future, I guess if I don't want to drive and finish all the tracks, even the ones without respawn CPs, I just won't vote. *shrug*
Track Slacker
Location: US
02 May 2017 14:29:26  
Hey,

well, arkives and rippers arguments and explanation are fitting my
own thoughts about CP's.

I think it's in addition a question about the HOW you learn a track.
I always restart a map if I fail or hit something because the mappers
idea is or was - NOT - to hit things. My personal learning and hunting
starts with each new start because I always get corners tighter like the
previous try. Most of the maps I've played are ending with a PB, which
is sometimes hard to beat again.
I don't play online a lot, I don't play rounds and most of my maps
are built according to my own fun to drive them.
Nevertheless, I always use CP's because .... I've simply learned my mapping
to use CP's.;)
Sometimes I've added "useless" CP's only to see your progress
while hunting the track. I love "blue times";)
I don't think I would redesign a map only because a CP's is useless for
respawn. Like I said - it depends on the kind I learn to drive a track.

It's my opinion and I respect all arguments you've listed but I think
tracks are NOT build to use CP's. At least they can only assist your learning to
drive a map in a different way as it was built.
Speeeed
Location: DE
17 May 2017 13:33:11  
Hi guys,

This is my first post on MX8-|

Another reason to use CPs is to prevent cuts.

In offroad maps, yeah that's what I do most of the time, I always use them in order to achieve this. I always​ do maps to be played online too. So I use CPs for those 2 reasons.

CPs are very useful also in order to reduce the weight of the maps while "forcing" the racer to follow the path you manage to build instead of bulking up the scenery.

_______
Keep on riding :cool:



Last edited by RageOVolant, 17 May 2017 13:35:51
Learner Driver
Location: CA
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